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Warning: Too many letters in the following comment (but not many more then in the cartoon itself).
1st panel: IRA, ETA, that guy in Texas attacking IRS building with a small plane. Some of them may be marginally religious, but that isn’t their main feature.
2nd panel: It would be stupid to claim that God does something if you don’t believe in Him (Her, It). And it is much better to base morality on my hormonal state, desire for instant gratification and disdain for stupid people (there is too many of them around).
3rd panel: I understand that we live in 21st century, but let’s not forget our immediate history. WWII was started by largely atheistic National Socialist government of Germany (there can be some debate on views of Hitler and other top brass, but few would argue that then-Nazi worldview was actually driven by any religion), the Soviet Union was adamantly atheistic and monstrous in treatment of its own people, both were mistreating (to put it extremely mildly) Jews, so …
4th panel: Ritual circumcision — I’ll give you that. Witch hunts — questionable. Scared people can do stupid things. Stonings — no, gas chambers are so much more efficient (see above). Tense standoffs at rural locations — did you ever watch “Gunfight at the O.K. Corral”?
5th panel: No argument on rioting about cartoons, although even U.S. knows its share of riots (some of them even for good causes). So atheists aren’t born again after sex scandals, but they do have their fair share of scandals, sometimes sexual (even buy diamond rings afterward for a spouse). Atheists don’t see Mary in tacos, but they sure do see lots of UFOs.
Look, I like humor, I love a good discussion, I enjoy witty sarcasm. I don’t like short memories that recollect only last week’s worth of news from the idiot box.
The artist got two things more or less right, a couple borderline ones, and quite a few terribly, terribly wrong (especially third panel, that is … I am at loss for words).
Now the moralizing:
1. When we (religious people) or anyone else does something stupid, do talk about it. Let’s not be and act stupid.
2. If you (non-religious people as a whole) are guilty of stupid things, don’t blame/make fun of us (religious people as a whole) for same/similar things. You look as hypocrites at best, mindless demagogues at worst. Let’s blame/make fun of STUPID people for STUPID things they do. They actually deserve it.
3. All of you who enjoyed the cartoon — so did I (to certain extend). All of you who agreed with it — you got screwed in your brain. That is a piece of false propaganda, and you believed it without thinking. Do not allow others screw your brains, THINK! To paraphrase Scott Dilbert, I am not anti-atheist, I am anti-idiot.
Guys/girls, I am not trying to pick a fight, to change your mind without you actually being persuaded, to bore you with a very long post. I want all of us be intelligent, polite people who do not buy into any propaganda, even if it propagates my point of view. Thank you all for your attention.
I believe you’re mistaken about panel three. Nazi Germany was as Catholic as you can get. Mein Kampf explicitly lays out the Christian background for the Holocaust in the first chapter. Russia’s atheism was more anti worship of anyone except the Party leaders. They saw mainstream religions as competition, but the mindset was indistinguishable from a religious one.
Thought I’d try to clear that up. I hear it often.
“…it is much better to base morality on my hormonal state, desire for instant gratification and disdain for stupid people…”
Is this that tired old lie that without a god to threaten horrible punishment there would be no morality? Please.
IRA has nothing to do with religion? One side is Catholic and the other side is Protestant. The conflicts have been about how one side or the other was treated because of its religion. If religion wasn’t there, there’d be no conflict.
Ivan, panel 3 says, “…in the name of atheism…”
The Nazis and the Soviets took their actions for reasons that have nothing to do with atheism. The Soviet atrocities against Soviet citizens were to consolidate power in the hands of a ruthless few. Hitler and most of the rest of the Nazis were Catholics. They treated Jews far worse than their other “undesirable persons” because of religion.
IRA has nothing to do with religion? One side is Catholic and the other side is Protestant. The conflicts have been about how one side or the other was treated because of its religion. If religion wasn’t there, there’d be no conflict.
As for your point #2, this cartoon lampoons horrible behavior in the name of religion by pointing out that no such atrocities have been committed in the name of not-religion. The cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion, only that the absence of religion is not the cause of such behavior.
Regarding the benign atheist Josef Stalin, please examine the “holodomor” or wheat famine that occurred during 1932-1933 in Ukraine. Also, consider the millions who were killed by another atheist, Mao Tse-tung. Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.
“Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.”
A fair statement… except that neither the Soviet Union under Stalin nor Maoist China were cases of “atheism attacking believers and killing them for their beliefs.”
Heck, even _if_ it was a fact that genocide and oppression somehow naturally follow from state-sanctioned atheism (they don’t); even if atheists were grim, suicidal and amoral people (they aren’t); even if Dawkins himself proclaimed on BBC1 that he admired Hitler (he doesn’t) - that still wouldn’t change anything about the fact that there is no evidence for there being a god and the little “evidence” there is can easily be explained away as wishful thinking and neuroses.
To Ivan: Your argument is too long to address here, but suffice it to say that you have taken a typical Christian stance. I’ll give you an example, a man who is very famous in the South confronted a lesbian at a conference. She asked him why he judged her for her lifestyle and his only response was “why do you judge me for my lifestyle?” He meant that his lifestyle was to condemn homosexuality and she was judging him for it. Well, anyone can see the fault in that logic. Atheists as a rule do not judge anyone for their lifestyle, we simply want to be be able to express our views of a godless society. We are the minority, so natually it is felt that the majority rules, but that isn’t correct. Just because a large population want religion in society doesn’t make it right, if that were the case there would be no rights for minorities or women.
I was a christan for most of my life, I am now 47 years old, and have always questioned the violence of the old testament. But a few years ago I started reading , and I mean really reading the bible, and the more I read the more I realized that if God is real I did not want to worship him…
Let me ask you all this question, should we worship Hitler, he killed thousands of people who were not like his chosen people. He tried to punish and kill those who disagreed with him. Is that not what God does…Whey would a loving god create humans then tell us to bow to him and worship him or we would suffer forever, think of how long forever is, in a pit of fire. If that is god then I would rather suffer then worship a god who has to make petty threats.
If there is a god and he wants me in his kingdom then he needs to tell the whole world he exists and he needs to cure all disease and he needs to heal all amputees, and he needs to promise that no one will die of hunger again. And then he needs to treat us all as if he really really loved us..
I challenge anyone to check out the website whywontgodhealamputees and walk away still believing in the god of the bible.
One more thought I have had for years, Wheels were invented thousands of years ago, clockwork technology was invented century ago, but not a whole lot of other stuff had been invented prior to 1776. Yes I mean some people improved on others stuff, but still everything had to be wound up or operated by hand or pulled by an animal. The reason was because most societys were based on religon and run by religous tyrants. USA was not started as a theaocracy but a Demoracy. And suddenly people could thing and talk and publish letters and file patents and invent and learn without fear of being Stoned to death as a heretic. And in just 240 years of free thinking we have come from wind up watches and wagons pulled by horses, to machines that computate billions on bits of info in a matter of seconds and they sit on our laps, we have walked on the moon, we get around the world in hours instead of 80 days…Imagine if Galileo had been allowed to publish his thoughts and theroys and others had read and expanded on them. We could be colonizing other planets by now.
Would it not be a great world if all men and women were free and laws were made only for our common protection and privacey. Then we could start spending money and resources on caring for humans instead of killing them. And yes I am a rational thinker, no gods no religous killing.
Good day to all. Once again, too many letters. Sorry.
Dear Alan. Thank you for non-combative attitude. I will try to do the same. Continuing our discussion about panel 3.
I am not a professional historian of the twentieth century. My understanding of Nazi philosophy is somewhat limited. I haven’t even read Mein Kampf. However, the very first link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Church_and_state) seems to convey that religious ideas were used to propagate Nazi worldview in a very cavalier manner. They weren’t the guiding lights, they were used in the manner “Lets say that we are right, because Jews killed Jesus”. I realize, there are people who do not accept wikipedia argument, but I am not one of them.
Russia’s atheism was just that — atheism. We can discuss the causes and effects of it, but the fact stares at us. No “mindset was indistinguishable from a religious one” can change that. As I mentioned before, I am not against atheists or religious people, I am against stupid people (by stupid here I mean killing millions of people in the name of bright communistic future).
Did I mention (somebody did) atheistic China?
Panel three stays an epic fail.
Dear Blinzo. I will try. I will…
“Is this that tired old lie that without a god to threaten horrible punishment there would be no morality? Please.” I certainly hope not. Morality is based on habits, learned behavior, choices. Please, underline the correct answer(s), add more if necessary, and we will (possibly) continue our discussion.
Panel 2 is to be determined (maybe). The topic is very deep, we may not be able to tackle it…
IRA has something to do with religion. I’d be a fool to deny it. For you I will take away IRA from my list. For others, I will point to the words “marginally religious” and hope that people will see the meaning of them and maybe even agree with me.
I will also add the atheistic anarchists of the latter nineteenth century Russia as an example of atheistic terrorists. If you aren’t familiar with the topic, do yourself a favor, educate yourself on young, progressive, educated, idealistic, atheistic terrorists. If you want something more well-known, how about the Reign of Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror)? I am all for civil liberties and stuff, I even like reason, but there were certain bounds crossed in the name of atheism.
Panel one is still misguiding, operating on emotions and very recent facts.
“The Nazis and the Soviets took their actions for reasons that have nothing to do with atheism.” That is partially correct. Greed, ruthlessness, hunger for power, sin(? — just kidding) transcend religions and atheism alike. I repeat, I am against stupid (and by stupid, I also mean evil) things. But “panel 3 says, ‘…in the name of atheism…’”. Some of those evil things in Russia, China, North Korea are done in the name of atheism. Some other evil things have been and are done in the name of some religion. Covering stupid and/or evil things with religion or atheism is equally despicable. Claiming that it is never done in the name of atheism is naive at best.
Panel three is still an epic fail.
My point #2. I will have to quote you completely:
“As for your point #2, this cartoon lampoons horrible behavior in the name of religion by pointing out that no such atrocities have been committed in the name of not-religion. The cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion, only that the absence of religion is not the cause of such behavior.”
I realize what cartoon lampoons. I also realize, that such atrocities HAVE been committed in the name of not-religion, so “by pointing” does not work, and that is my Main Point. I gave examples of it almost point for point.
I also realize that “[t]he cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion”, however, it FALSELY implies that the presence of religion is the cause of such behavior. And the inability of many to see it makes me sad.
adav84, I am glad that you agree with John’s statement “Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.” I am surprised, however, at your statement that the Stalinist and Maoist regimes did not attack and kill religious people. Perhaps outright death sentences were uncommon (none come to mind immediately, although Chinese history is not my strong suit), yet sentences in Siberia (for Russian believers) were commonplace. I assumed that was common knowledge. That definitely qualifies as an attack on believers.
About your second post. We (at least I) are not here to discuss whether there is God (gods) or not. For centuries very intelligent people discussed this topic, internet is full of similar (though much less edifying) ..mmm… discussions. Who are we (am I) to settle it once and for all underneath this lovely piece of art?
I am simply calling people to use their brains, whether they are atheists, agnostics, buddhists, or something else.
Martin, my argument is not too long to discuss here. I am not talking about God’s existence, lesbian rights, women’s suffrage movement, etc. I am talking about false comparisons, twisting facts, using rhetoric questions to drive a point across. That is called propaganda. It is wrong. Christians do it, Maoists do it, atheists do it, marketing departments do it. It is still wrong. So my suggestion to everyone — think. Think, think, think. Don’t get fooled. I hope that wasn’t too long.
P.S. Martin, there are more women than men. At least, in U.S.
P.P.S. I truly hope that my position of “think, don’t get suckered” is (or at least will be) a typical Christian stance.
Robert, your statements aren’t about cartoon. I will allow myself only one statement. You haven’t really read the Bible, if you still think that there is/will be a pit of fire forever; learn what second death is. Good luck.
Hehe, good one.
It would be nice to know where these cartoons come from, by the way.
I like this one!
Warning: Too many letters in the following comment (but not many more then in the cartoon itself).
1st panel: IRA, ETA, that guy in Texas attacking IRS building with a small plane. Some of them may be marginally religious, but that isn’t their main feature.
2nd panel: It would be stupid to claim that God does something if you don’t believe in Him (Her, It). And it is much better to base morality on my hormonal state, desire for instant gratification and disdain for stupid people (there is too many of them around).
3rd panel: I understand that we live in 21st century, but let’s not forget our immediate history. WWII was started by largely atheistic National Socialist government of Germany (there can be some debate on views of Hitler and other top brass, but few would argue that then-Nazi worldview was actually driven by any religion), the Soviet Union was adamantly atheistic and monstrous in treatment of its own people, both were mistreating (to put it extremely mildly) Jews, so …
4th panel: Ritual circumcision — I’ll give you that. Witch hunts — questionable. Scared people can do stupid things. Stonings — no, gas chambers are so much more efficient (see above). Tense standoffs at rural locations — did you ever watch “Gunfight at the O.K. Corral”?
5th panel: No argument on rioting about cartoons, although even U.S. knows its share of riots (some of them even for good causes). So atheists aren’t born again after sex scandals, but they do have their fair share of scandals, sometimes sexual (even buy diamond rings afterward for a spouse). Atheists don’t see Mary in tacos, but they sure do see lots of UFOs.
Look, I like humor, I love a good discussion, I enjoy witty sarcasm. I don’t like short memories that recollect only last week’s worth of news from the idiot box.
The artist got two things more or less right, a couple borderline ones, and quite a few terribly, terribly wrong (especially third panel, that is … I am at loss for words).
Now the moralizing:
1. When we (religious people) or anyone else does something stupid, do talk about it. Let’s not be and act stupid.
2. If you (non-religious people as a whole) are guilty of stupid things, don’t blame/make fun of us (religious people as a whole) for same/similar things. You look as hypocrites at best, mindless demagogues at worst. Let’s blame/make fun of STUPID people for STUPID things they do. They actually deserve it.
3. All of you who enjoyed the cartoon — so did I (to certain extend). All of you who agreed with it — you got screwed in your brain. That is a piece of false propaganda, and you believed it without thinking. Do not allow others screw your brains, THINK! To paraphrase Scott Dilbert, I am not anti-atheist, I am anti-idiot.
Guys/girls, I am not trying to pick a fight, to change your mind without you actually being persuaded, to bore you with a very long post. I want all of us be intelligent, polite people who do not buy into any propaganda, even if it propagates my point of view. Thank you all for your attention.
My new favorite comic
@ Ivan
I believe you’re mistaken about panel three. Nazi Germany was as Catholic as you can get. Mein Kampf explicitly lays out the Christian background for the Holocaust in the first chapter. Russia’s atheism was more anti worship of anyone except the Party leaders. They saw mainstream religions as competition, but the mindset was indistinguishable from a religious one.
Thought I’d try to clear that up. I hear it often.
Warmest Regards
“…it is much better to base morality on my hormonal state, desire for instant gratification and disdain for stupid people…”
Is this that tired old lie that without a god to threaten horrible punishment there would be no morality? Please.
IRA has nothing to do with religion? One side is Catholic and the other side is Protestant. The conflicts have been about how one side or the other was treated because of its religion. If religion wasn’t there, there’d be no conflict.
Ivan, panel 3 says, “…in the name of atheism…”
The Nazis and the Soviets took their actions for reasons that have nothing to do with atheism. The Soviet atrocities against Soviet citizens were to consolidate power in the hands of a ruthless few. Hitler and most of the rest of the Nazis were Catholics. They treated Jews far worse than their other “undesirable persons” because of religion.
IRA has nothing to do with religion? One side is Catholic and the other side is Protestant. The conflicts have been about how one side or the other was treated because of its religion. If religion wasn’t there, there’d be no conflict.
As for your point #2, this cartoon lampoons horrible behavior in the name of religion by pointing out that no such atrocities have been committed in the name of not-religion. The cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion, only that the absence of religion is not the cause of such behavior.
Regarding the benign atheist Josef Stalin, please examine the “holodomor” or wheat famine that occurred during 1932-1933 in Ukraine. Also, consider the millions who were killed by another atheist, Mao Tse-tung. Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.
“Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.”
A fair statement… except that neither the Soviet Union under Stalin nor Maoist China were cases of “atheism attacking believers and killing them for their beliefs.”
Heck, even _if_ it was a fact that genocide and oppression somehow naturally follow from state-sanctioned atheism (they don’t); even if atheists were grim, suicidal and amoral people (they aren’t); even if Dawkins himself proclaimed on BBC1 that he admired Hitler (he doesn’t) - that still wouldn’t change anything about the fact that there is no evidence for there being a god and the little “evidence” there is can easily be explained away as wishful thinking and neuroses.
I received 1 st loans when I was 25 and that supported my family a lot. However, I require the small business loan once again.
To Ivan: Your argument is too long to address here, but suffice it to say that you have taken a typical Christian stance. I’ll give you an example, a man who is very famous in the South confronted a lesbian at a conference. She asked him why he judged her for her lifestyle and his only response was “why do you judge me for my lifestyle?” He meant that his lifestyle was to condemn homosexuality and she was judging him for it. Well, anyone can see the fault in that logic. Atheists as a rule do not judge anyone for their lifestyle, we simply want to be be able to express our views of a godless society. We are the minority, so natually it is felt that the majority rules, but that isn’t correct. Just because a large population want religion in society doesn’t make it right, if that were the case there would be no rights for minorities or women.
I was a christan for most of my life, I am now 47 years old, and have always questioned the violence of the old testament. But a few years ago I started reading , and I mean really reading the bible, and the more I read the more I realized that if God is real I did not want to worship him…
Let me ask you all this question, should we worship Hitler, he killed thousands of people who were not like his chosen people. He tried to punish and kill those who disagreed with him. Is that not what God does…Whey would a loving god create humans then tell us to bow to him and worship him or we would suffer forever, think of how long forever is, in a pit of fire. If that is god then I would rather suffer then worship a god who has to make petty threats.
If there is a god and he wants me in his kingdom then he needs to tell the whole world he exists and he needs to cure all disease and he needs to heal all amputees, and he needs to promise that no one will die of hunger again. And then he needs to treat us all as if he really really loved us..
I challenge anyone to check out the website whywontgodhealamputees and walk away still believing in the god of the bible.
One more thought I have had for years, Wheels were invented thousands of years ago, clockwork technology was invented century ago, but not a whole lot of other stuff had been invented prior to 1776. Yes I mean some people improved on others stuff, but still everything had to be wound up or operated by hand or pulled by an animal. The reason was because most societys were based on religon and run by religous tyrants. USA was not started as a theaocracy but a Demoracy. And suddenly people could thing and talk and publish letters and file patents and invent and learn without fear of being Stoned to death as a heretic. And in just 240 years of free thinking we have come from wind up watches and wagons pulled by horses, to machines that computate billions on bits of info in a matter of seconds and they sit on our laps, we have walked on the moon, we get around the world in hours instead of 80 days…Imagine if Galileo had been allowed to publish his thoughts and theroys and others had read and expanded on them. We could be colonizing other planets by now.
Would it not be a great world if all men and women were free and laws were made only for our common protection and privacey. Then we could start spending money and resources on caring for humans instead of killing them. And yes I am a rational thinker, no gods no religous killing.
correction: just so you don’t think I did not know that clock work tech was invented many centurys ago and not just one century ago.
Good day to all. Once again, too many letters. Sorry.
Dear Alan. Thank you for non-combative attitude. I will try to do the same. Continuing our discussion about panel 3.
I am not a professional historian of the twentieth century. My understanding of Nazi philosophy is somewhat limited. I haven’t even read Mein Kampf. However, the very first link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Church_and_state) seems to convey that religious ideas were used to propagate Nazi worldview in a very cavalier manner. They weren’t the guiding lights, they were used in the manner “Lets say that we are right, because Jews killed Jesus”. I realize, there are people who do not accept wikipedia argument, but I am not one of them.
Russia’s atheism was just that — atheism. We can discuss the causes and effects of it, but the fact stares at us. No “mindset was indistinguishable from a religious one” can change that. As I mentioned before, I am not against atheists or religious people, I am against stupid people (by stupid here I mean killing millions of people in the name of bright communistic future).
Did I mention (somebody did) atheistic China?
Panel three stays an epic fail.
Dear Blinzo. I will try. I will…
“Is this that tired old lie that without a god to threaten horrible punishment there would be no morality? Please.” I certainly hope not. Morality is based on habits, learned behavior, choices. Please, underline the correct answer(s), add more if necessary, and we will (possibly) continue our discussion.
Panel 2 is to be determined (maybe). The topic is very deep, we may not be able to tackle it…
IRA has something to do with religion. I’d be a fool to deny it. For you I will take away IRA from my list. For others, I will point to the words “marginally religious” and hope that people will see the meaning of them and maybe even agree with me.
I will also add the atheistic anarchists of the latter nineteenth century Russia as an example of atheistic terrorists. If you aren’t familiar with the topic, do yourself a favor, educate yourself on young, progressive, educated, idealistic, atheistic terrorists. If you want something more well-known, how about the Reign of Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror)? I am all for civil liberties and stuff, I even like reason, but there were certain bounds crossed in the name of atheism.
Panel one is still misguiding, operating on emotions and very recent facts.
“The Nazis and the Soviets took their actions for reasons that have nothing to do with atheism.” That is partially correct. Greed, ruthlessness, hunger for power, sin(? — just kidding) transcend religions and atheism alike. I repeat, I am against stupid (and by stupid, I also mean evil) things. But “panel 3 says, ‘…in the name of atheism…’”. Some of those evil things in Russia, China, North Korea are done in the name of atheism. Some other evil things have been and are done in the name of some religion. Covering stupid and/or evil things with religion or atheism is equally despicable. Claiming that it is never done in the name of atheism is naive at best.
Panel three is still an epic fail.
My point #2. I will have to quote you completely:
“As for your point #2, this cartoon lampoons horrible behavior in the name of religion by pointing out that no such atrocities have been committed in the name of not-religion. The cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion, only that the absence of religion is not the cause of such behavior.”
I realize what cartoon lampoons. I also realize, that such atrocities HAVE been committed in the name of not-religion, so “by pointing” does not work, and that is my Main Point. I gave examples of it almost point for point.
I also realize that “[t]he cartoon does not imply that horrible behavior doesn’t happen in the absence of religion”, however, it FALSELY implies that the presence of religion is the cause of such behavior. And the inability of many to see it makes me sad.
adav84, I am glad that you agree with John’s statement “Atheism can be tolerated in a free society, but when it attacks believers and kills them for their beliefs, it has crossed the line.” I am surprised, however, at your statement that the Stalinist and Maoist regimes did not attack and kill religious people. Perhaps outright death sentences were uncommon (none come to mind immediately, although Chinese history is not my strong suit), yet sentences in Siberia (for Russian believers) were commonplace. I assumed that was common knowledge. That definitely qualifies as an attack on believers.
About your second post. We (at least I) are not here to discuss whether there is God (gods) or not. For centuries very intelligent people discussed this topic, internet is full of similar (though much less edifying) ..mmm… discussions. Who are we (am I) to settle it once and for all underneath this lovely piece of art?
I am simply calling people to use their brains, whether they are atheists, agnostics, buddhists, or something else.
Martin, my argument is not too long to discuss here. I am not talking about God’s existence, lesbian rights, women’s suffrage movement, etc. I am talking about false comparisons, twisting facts, using rhetoric questions to drive a point across. That is called propaganda. It is wrong. Christians do it, Maoists do it, atheists do it, marketing departments do it. It is still wrong. So my suggestion to everyone — think. Think, think, think. Don’t get fooled. I hope that wasn’t too long.
P.S. Martin, there are more women than men. At least, in U.S.
P.P.S. I truly hope that my position of “think, don’t get suckered” is (or at least will be) a typical Christian stance.
Robert, your statements aren’t about cartoon. I will allow myself only one statement. You haven’t really read the Bible, if you still think that there is/will be a pit of fire forever; learn what second death is. Good luck.
Ivan, you are absolutely wrong about the Nazi’s. They were some of my biggest supporters.